Excerpts from the UVM Secession Debate
Frank Bryan and Paul Gillies

Sponsored by the Vermont Humanities Council
February 2007

Transcribed and With a Reaction
by Joshua Lambert, Burlington College Student

Opening Arguments
Frank Bryan
I love America for Patsy Cline and Muhammad Ali, Ted Williams and Chuck Yeager, for Normandy. I'm in love with the very idea of America. And I ought to be because I'm a Vermonter, and Vermont, in fact, as most national observers will tell you, Vermont is the American conscience, the American homeland. Writing in the series of the American states, Neal Pierce, who writes on New England, says that very thing. Of all the American states in the American heartland, they think back to America, the idea: Thanksgiving or a cold winters night like this, or whatever. They often think of Vermont as the residue of that homeland. And so, in one sense, I'm a secessionist because I want to preserve America by seceding. And I don't mean to be frivolous about that, and if in a century or so after we've left, America wants to come back home, like the prodigal, Biblical trial of old, we'll open up our arms if they behave better than they've been behaving. You see, the brotherhood nationally is gone. There's no brotherhood, sisterhood across America, and that I think is the genesis of the problem.

Let me make the case very quickly. We are, in Vermont, by history, an independent republic. We existed as an independent republic for thirteen, fourteen years. We were the only state to be so, unless you count California, and then there was Texas. We have a love/hate relationship with Texas because they were a republic too. We thought that we were a more coherent republic, and of course we weren't senile enough to put all of our soldiers in one fort like they did, so we survived as a republic even longer.

Secondly, our [Vermont] constitution is the epitome, the quintessential American constitution. It's the first constitution to outlaw slavery, the first constitution to allow people who did not own property to vote; an extremely liberal constitution. And we've always acted independently; we fundamentally ignored the war of 1812, we resisted the fugitive slave act and other movements for slavery in the mid-nineteenth century. We declared war on Germany and Japan, on Germany before WWI and Japan before WWII by appropriating money from the legislature in September of 1941, before Pearl Harbor, for any American Soldier that fought in Japan. We were way ahead of the curve on that one.

We paid our dues; we voted down the Green Mountain parkway that was proposed by the national government to actually put an asphalt strip, a highway from Massachusetts to Canada. Every square inch of tar above the 2500 foot line, to hook our mountains together by concrete. We turned it down and the nation laughed at us; those silly, old Neanderthal, conservative, Yankee republicans up there in Vermont. Well, show me a politician today that will put a super highway down the crest line of the green mountains. We'll, it wouldn't be difficult but it would show you someone that is idiotic.

McCarthyism. Vermont's senator in Washington led the movement against McCarthy, and Vermont and its legislature turned its back on McCarthy. Act 250 was one of the first coherent and comprehensive environmental laws, civil unions and on it goes. So, we've always been ahead of the curve, independent, and we have a history of being an independent republic.

Paul Gillies
It's really my job to rub the fairy dust out of our eyes and look at this question clearly, and I think one of the things the secessionists misunderstand is this celebration of the first republic and it's belief that we has somehow enjoyed that time - and we didn't. It was a terrible time for us ,and we yearned constantly for one thing - which was to join the Union. We kept making a mess of it, we kept pushing in the wrong direction and making the wrong mistakes, but we kept returning again and again to this idea that we really want to be part of you.

History is kind of funny, though. I was looking up, I decided that in order to understand how that period worked I would read all the petitions from Vermonters to Congress through those fourteen years. But before then, I got to this letter that Ethan Allen, our hero of secession, wrote in April of 1774, in which he said that he was justifying the move to New York and he said that the settlers of the New Hampshire grants are reduced to a disagreeable state of anarchy and confusion, in which state we hope for wisdom, patience, and fortitude til the happy hour his Majesty graciously be pleased to restore us to the privileges of Englishmen. So, he wasn't exactly going that way.

In Vermont's appeal to a candid nation, Stephen Rowe Bradley said we glory in being aligned to your government, meaning the United States. In his letter to Congress, Ira Allen in 1782 said that we therefore take this method to express our wishes and do in the state of Vermont solicit and most earnestly request the United States and Congress would recognize her, our independence, and admit her into the federal union of the United States of America to a state of congress. Thomas Chittenden to George Washington in May of 1782, the glory of America is our glory and with our glory our country we mean to live or die as her fate shall be. So, on January 1791, there was a constitutional convention and [Vermonters] almost unanimously voted to join the union, to agree to the thirty thousand dollars that we would pay New York, so that our titles, and our government would be validated, respected, and protected.

Now we talk about we want to get out, but there are others who have the opinion that we ought to get out. In 1857, the Georgia state senate adopted a resolution calling upon his Excellency, President Franklin Pierce, to employ a significant number of able bodied Irish men to proceed to the state of Vermont and dig a ditch around the limits of the same and float the thing out into the Atlantic. And following the election of Bernie Sanders in the U.S. Senate in November 7th last year, conservative television commentators declared that Vermont no longer belongs in the United States. Well, Bernie is our gift to America, so was George Aiken, Ralph Flanders, Justin Morrill, and Ethan Allen, for that matter.

America is America because of the diverse characters Vermont has sent to Washington. Is it right to deny the U.S. the benefits we bestow on it? Now, the decision to secede is not ours to make. Obviously, it's a joint decision, and no matter how different Vermonters may seem from the rest of America, America isn't exactly about to let us go. Were would it ever find a character for a cousin? Why would the United States let Vermont go? And what would stop states like New Hampshire and California from bolting for the door right after us? Wouldn't this indeed sound the end of the United States?

Rebuttal
Frank Bryan
The problem I have with the tone of the argument is that you think that, well, we're kind of a quirky, interesting state, but we really don't mean any of it. We just like to argue and fight for the hell of it; there they go again after secession. I think that's not true at all. I think our history has shown that we mean what we say, and fundamentally, we do what we mean, and that our thirst for real independence is not cosmetic at all.

Secondly, America can get along just fine without us. Let them go at it. I mean have you looked at the weather map recently? You must have, right? Sometimes when I check the weather in Vermont I take a look at it; so you wait for ten minutes while they're discussing weather patterns everywhere in America and then they get to New England, and we say here it come, here comes Vermont. You look at it and there's a little whisk of white clouds somewhere north of Boston. They don't mention Vermont, they don't even mention, it's just whisk, it's gone. So, you've got to extrapolate from Boston. That's about all we need from the United States of America.

You're right Paul, if it wasn't for the Electoral College and our two senators, we'd have absolutely no influence whatsoever. None. And, a lot of people say, why do we have direct election for president, well that would really do us in. We're one five-hundred and thirty-fifth of the American political power. We're one four-hundred and thirty-fifth of the population. One over four-hundred and thirty-five; do the math. And that's one reason why I'm a secessionist; it's not going to hurt America a bit. It would do them some good to understand that one bunch of us are truly upset with them, and it isn't a game. That's the problem with the media. They're playing games. I can't watch fire and cross, I can't do it. They're just a batter of screaming partisans yelling one-liners at each other. It's sickening. That's not the way we do things in Vermont, and I think one of the reasons that I didn't get to first, Paul, is that one of the reasons why we've got to get out quickly is because we are becoming like America; it scares the devil out of me.

Let me give you two examples. We are a tough people, we ought to be, and we are. We know how to grab a 5/8ths inch wrench and crawl under a 350 John Deere tractor in an afternoon like today and fix the damn thing. We're like that, but you know we're giving it up.

Last spring, you know we have one day every May that's about 85 degrees, kind of taunting us. So, it was one of those beautiful May days, the leaves aren't fully out but the grass is getting green and there is some forsythia out. So, I leave to go home, it's 4:30; I'm going down Williston road. I drive an old clunker, I've got the windows down and I got a little bluegrass music on, and I'm banging the side of my car having a good old time. Even in that great, hot, summer air, I was exulting in the fact that I survived winter, and then I began to count the cars in that mini traffic jam, that had their windows down; two. Everybody else had their windows up and their air conditioning on. They didn't even want to smell the flowers. Right after Al Gore (who, by the way, has enough calories on his hind end to heat my house for a week) put out that movie, I decided to test the people in the old mill, so I put a little sign on the door to the old mill. I'm on the 5th floor, and you have to walk up four flights. The Al Gore memorial staircase is on your right, the elevator is on your left; choose rightly. Well by ten, no one took the stairs, they still took the elevator; they're still taking the elevator, and the sign was ripped down by about noon.

The other example is that of our democracy, our politics. I was outraged at what that deal that Bernie Sanders and the progressives cooked up this year, with the primary and then running in the general election, cause they wanted to make sure that Bernie would win. That's national politics. If that would have been a Republican or conservative who done that, most of you would have been outraged, but the progressives sold out. That's what they did, so they could win. Hell, Bernie would have beat Tarrant without them, come on. And that's an indication to me, and when I look at town meeting, more and more towns are going to the Australian ballot because it's quicker and it's more efficient. The United States culture is beyond imagination, the problem with it is that it's too damn big, it's too damn centralized and it's too filthy rich.
Paul Gillies
It's just hard to secede from something when you're an inland state. We don't even have a way of bailing out of this place. Frank, I am sitting in the same traffic jam where you are smelling your spring flowers and I'm depressed too, and I want to make sure that we're focusing on the right wrong here. I sit in that traffic jam and I think I'm in hell; this isn't the way it used to be. There used to be no traffic here, I use to be alone on this highway, and I don't like it and I don't like what I see in the mega mansions of Williston and up north, and I don't like the direction that the culture is heading, but I don't think that secession is the answer to that. I think the moral corruption that we find we hate is not something to be solved by secession. I think it's something that's a very unfortunate development, but it's not the cause of it, because we're not independent.

The financial argument, that we get three cents back for every dollar to Washington, I concede that if money were the only reason about how much we gave and how much we got back, let's secede, ok. But we are calculating what it costs to be independent. We had to pay 30,000 dollars to NY for our land titles. Do you suppose that we could secede and the federal government would just let us keep the interstate and the post offices and the federal buildings; we'd have to bond to pay them back. Wouldn't we? And so, we'd be in debt up to our knee caps for ever.

Now Europe is a good example, except what's happened in Europe? All those little funny countries have all joined together in a European Union. There is an issue that we haven't talked about and that is our commitments; we are a state that stands by our commitments, and in 1791, when we agreed to ratify the federal constitution, and when American said you may be our fourteenth state, we committed ourselves to a compact, and it didn't include an escape clause. It didn't say that if some day you don't like what's going on in Washington you can just bail out any time you want. We took the good with the bad, that was our risk and that was the way it is. It's a one-way clause.

We really managed to do something of a genius in that. There was a period of time, I should say, it wasn't that we were seeking statehood all those years. From about 1782 to about 1789, we weren't interested anymore; we stopped being interested in the whole idea of statehood, there were no petitions to Congress for that, and why, because we didn't want to become part of the United States because we didn't want to assume our portion of the federal war debt. And the terms on which we were admitted to the United States, we were not expected to pay that debt, and then several years later we actually put in a bid for some money and they paid us for the money we had paid them. So, we've done pretty well with statehood, and I think it's important, and I go back to this point because I think it's the fundamental point. Everything that Frank said about how wrong the world is, how sour it is, how badly it's going, I will concede, but it's not because Vermont isn't independent, because that's the way the world is going, and if there is hope for America, if there's hope for the world, start here as a member of the United States. Thanks.

Joshua Lambert – One Student's Reaction to the UVM Debate

After being under the weather for a few days, I began to look forward to leaving the harbor of home and make my way up the hill to UVM. Walking past the busy, tunnel glow of Church Street, and the bustle of people gathering outside the liquor store, I pondered whether I was for or against secession. I decided that my initial interest came from my lack of knowledge about what exactly secession was.

What is secession, anyway? Spelling or ever speaking it amongst other people who the term is green to, isn't exactly an easy task. Even though America was born through secession from Great Britain, whereby our Declaration of Independence was the document of secession, there is still nervousness around the issue; some relating secession to the south and slavery. The philosophies that secessionists have are complicated, and to thoroughly have someone explain its ins and outs may take up a few hours of your life: but we ought to know what our political options are right?

If you feel like your country isn't representing your best needs, secession is an option.

We have the right to leave the Union through our Constitution, but what would provoke such a change of though rather than working within the political system? Why would Vermont peacefully want to secede and create a free and independent state from the rest of the United States? This was the question many came with to this debate.

The two sides of the debate were presented by UVM Political Science Professor Frank Bryan, in favor of secession and Montpelier Attorney Paul Gillies, against secession.

The debate started with a fiery opening argument from Frank Bryan, his voice filled with a rational reassurance that was blunt and to the point. “Do we really want to stay in the United States?” Bryan asked. “Our foreign policy has become a massive centralized bureaucracy where under the current conditions of our government we need change. Throughout city, state and national government, there needs to be change.” Bryan added, “The Unites States culture is beyond imagination. The problem with it is its too damn big, it's too damn centralized, and it's too filthy rich, and that's what's happening to Vermont.” This belief of a need to have decentralized government stuck out through Bryan's words, echoing the thoughts of many Vermonters about independence and local control.

A “blade of grass,” is the analogy Bryan gave to describe Vermont. “America has been spread over with cement, but Vermont is a blade of grass that is coming up through the cement.” “They have taken our ability to decide,” Bryan speaking about the U.S. Government, while looking firmly towards the crowd. “It's time to leave, our thirst for independence is real, and America can do without us.” “We're losing our freedom, and our democracy. The federal government will give us money as long as we spend it like they want us to,” Bryan stated. Although Bryan's negative sentiments about U.S. governing was felt throughout his speech, calling the U.S. Government “the internal imperialist,” his stance on freedom of choice stood above Gillies stance of a large national government.

Paul Gillies voice was reminiscent of Utah Philips as he rebutted the volley against secession, generally portraying his beliefs with stoic precession. “America is America because of the diverse characters that Vermont has sent to Washington.” With a short pause he asked Vermont, “Is it our right to deny the benefits you bestow on it?” A chuckle rippled through the crowd. Gillies spoke about how there is a misconception among secessionists, “that we had somehow enjoyed that time,” referring to the 14 years that the First Vermont Republic was not part of the United States. “The history is kind of funny,” he said. “I decided that in order to understand how that period worked I would read all of the petitions from Vermonters to Congress through those fourteen years. But before then, I got to this letter that Ethan Allen, our hero of secession, wrote in April of 1774 which he said that ‘he was justifying the move from independence from New York”, and he said that “the settlers of the New Hampshire grants are reduced to a disagreeable state of anarchy and confusion, in which state we hope for wisdom, patience, and fortitude till the happy hour his majesty shall graciously be pleased to restore us to the privileges of Englishmen.”

Even with all Vermont agreeing to secede, would we be able to? “Why would the United States let Vermont go, asked Gillies. And what would stop states like California and New Hampshire from bolting for the door right after us? Wouldn't this indeed sound the end for the United States?” “The gasoline comes from refineries in other states, the oil comes from wells in another continent, groceries come from the west and the south, and computers are made in Japan. We aren't self- sufficient.” How would closing our borders affect trade with United States and how would secession change our relationship to the United States?

If we should make a conscious decision and agree that there are policies in place by the United States Government that are not in-favor of the citizens and limit our abilities to express our freedom, what choices are we left with? Should we stay as the State of Vermont and support other citizens of the United States in order to change these policies and rotate those out of power with those we deem fit to lead our nation? Currently across the country there is much support to Impeach George Bush, so there are movements rolling out of our dissatisfaction with our national government. Or, should we secede, start our own Republic of Vermont and start fresh? What if we close the borders in hopes that the social and political problems that are in the United States do not affect us?

During the time allowed for audience questioning, a man stated, “I must say that I am very, very surprised because I came here thinking that I was very much in favor of the idea of secession and I think that Professor Bryan has convinced me that I should not be. I essentially don't agree with the arguments that are presented. I agree that things have changed in this country, but I think that hasn't been emphasized.”

A separation from the United States leaves many questions up in the air as well: What would happen with Social Security? Foreign policy? How much would Vermont change and in what ways would Vermont stay the same? These are all points that neither speaker touched upon that need dire attention.

After hearing each of the speaker's views, I am not sure of whether I would be willing to secede based of Frank Bryon's argument. However, I am concerned that our current Government has not been responsible in the ways it has been running our country.

Both Bryan and Gillies agreed on one thing, that they don't like the way the country is going. Vermont has always been revolutionarily independent. We became the first state to outlaw slavery, the first teacher-training school in the U.S. was founded at Concord, in April 2000 Vermont became the first state in the U.S. to grant full legal recognition to "civil unions" between homosexual couples, and we have a long going tradition of town meetings. We all value our independency as citizens and through our own means we will decide the fate of our own government, one way or another.