Vermont Vox Pop: Moving Images on a Moving Train - An Interview with Deb Ellis and Denis Mueller

Conducted by Eric Esckilsen

Filmmaker and University of Vermont film professor Deb Ellis understands well the medium's potential for social change. Her 2004 documentary on radical historian Howard Zinn, You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train, offers a compelling cinematic portrait of an influential figure across varied contemporary movements toward social justice and equality. Co-produced and -directed with Ohio-based Denis Mueller, the film screened at festivals worldwide, springboarding the collaborators into their latest project, as yet untitled, which is about Iraq War veterans' resistance to the current war. We asked Ellis and Mueller for an interview just prior to the launch of the 18th annual Vermont International Film Festival (Oct. 11-14, www.vtiff.org), which Ellis heads as board president, she and Denis share insights on the inherent challenges in making movies with strong political themes—and ways that technological advances are fostering the production and distribution of films with a “message.”

Vermont Commons: First off, how were you able to gain such open access to Howard Zinn, a figure much admired but, one suspects, much hounded as a subject of films, books, articles, and the like?

Deb Ellis: First, while Howard may be “hounded,” he's a remarkable open and alive person. Once Denis made initial contact, our friendship grew. We have a mutual respect for each other. Howard became sort of amused that we would show up at various places around the country to see him. Howard has always shared his scholarship, his personal papers, and himself. This incredible good will followed our film. Everyone we contacted in relation to the film agreed to work with us. Even when Howard was wondering if we'd ever finish, he allowed us the time. And, at that point, there were people with access to more resources calling him. I am forever grateful to Howard for his trust in our work.

Denis Mueller: I contacted Zinn and sent him a film I had made about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). He and his wife, Roz, really liked the VVAW film. After he saw that film, I sent film him a film Deb and I had made together, The FBI's War on Black America, about the effects of the FBI program COINTELPRO. Howard felt that our point of view coincided with his. When we met, I found out that we shared a working-class background and we seemed to hit it off. At the time no one had approached him about a film. I guess our timing was good.

VC: What does your film contribute to an understanding of Zinn that may not have been out there in the public dialogue before You Can't be Neutral on a Moving Train?

DE: I think that You Can't Be Neutral provides an entry into Zinn's work by introducing the audience to his humanity. Most importantly, the film presents a person who has thought deeply about his experiences, and has acted on his beliefs. He offers a model for our own action. I have always hoped that our film would introduce a larger audience to his work. That is our success.

DM: I think we show his great humanity. I thought Howard would be this angry guy, but instead he was this charming and very warm person. He taught me that one can be angry at the injustice that exists in the world but retain a sense of humor.

VC: What inspired you and Mueller to make your next project?

DM: I am a working-class guy and have been interested in antiwar veterans for a long time. Deb found this wonderful story about the Patrick and Jill Hart that cuts to the bone, so we decided to do it. It is a logical progression for us. We have made a film about the FBI attacking social movements, and a film about Zinn, so to make a film about a social movement in progress and a very personal story seemed perfect to me.

DE: In June 2006 Denis and I attended an event in Buffalo, New York, and Erie, Ontario called “Peace Has No Borders” (sound familiar?). “Peace Has No Borders” was an amazing celebration of solidarity and support for U.S. war resisters who had chosen to refuse to go to Canada rather than be deployed to the Iraq theater. Before the event, I did some article searches to find out about the organizers, and the resisters. Very few people in the States were aware of the growing stream of resisters going to Canada. I was very interested in the implications of such a significant decision being made by such young men and women. When I found Jill and Patrick Hart's story in a Buffalo paper, I wanted to know more. Patrick Hart was a nine-year member of the Army. He had spent a year in Kuwait and was about to be deployed to Iraq. He decided to go to Canada, and made the decision without telling his wife. He knew she would turn him in. Jill now confirms now that if she had known, she would have turned him in. Today, Jill and their son have joined Patrick in Canada. We have spent time with Patrick and Jill over the past year and a half, following them through their application for immigration, and their move from ardent “new” resisters to being a family living and growing in a new country. Since meeting Patrick and Jill, we have come to know many of the resisters, and their support community in the U.S. and Canada. We have become interested in the transmission of generational memory between the Iraq War Resisters and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. We are also interested in the use of art and performance in the resistance community. These threads are winding together

VC: Have you always been interested, as a filmmaker, in films dealing with social and political issues? What do your film roots look like?

DE: I have always been awed by the ability of film to convey incredible emotion. So, it seemed a natural to use film as a way to talk about social issues. I grew up under the influence of photographic essays—Life magazine, The World of Man, et cetera. So, I gained a lot of my entrée into the lives of others through immersion in photographs. I had a sense of the power of images and I think that fueled my interest in film.

DM: I was overwhelmed by Barbara Kopple's great film Harlan County USA. I also am a child of the '60s and love film. It just seemed to me to be a way to combine my politics with art.

VC: How does your work as the Vermont International Film Festival (VIFF) board president—and de facto artistic director—fuel that interest?

DE: I would say it works the other way around! It is my interest in the power of bringing people together around films that fuels my interest in working with the festival. Every year, my hope is that the festival can provide a venue for community experience and discussion. This year I am particularly excited to have a lineup of films that express the experiences of people from around the world, such as Bamako (dir. Abderrahmane Sissako, Mali/USA/France, 2007), in which African civil society proceedings against the IMF and World Bank take place in the courtyard of Melé, a bar singer, and her out-of-work husband, Chaka. Manufactured Landscapes (dir. Jenifer Balchwal/Canada/2006) follows acclaimed photographer Edward Burtynsky to China as he captures the effects of the country's massive industrial revolution and leads us to meditate on human endeavor and its impact on the planet. Other films include War Dance (dir. Sean Fine and Andrea Nix/USA/2007), about the journey of three former child members of Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army who make it to the finals of Uganda's national music and dance competition. Strange Culture (dir. Lynn Hershman Leeson/USA/2006) is about the surreal nightmare of internationally acclaimed artist and professor Steve Kurtz accused of being a “bioterrorist.” And there's more, including an incredible run of Vermont films. One of the Vermont films is Jeff Farber's Living on the Fault Line about the intersection of family dignity and racial injustice in the experiences of Vermont's transracial families.

It is an honor to work with the staff and board of the festival, and numerous supportive community members, to bring these films to a Vermont audience. I am looking forward to another year of films, conversation, and incentive to work to make the world a more peaceful and sustainable place.

VC: How does a film festival like VIFF manage to present substantial, issue-oriented films while avoiding a sense that the festival program is politically “heavy” or dogmatic?

DE: We have an incredible range of work we show. For example, this year we'll be screening a film called Havana Blues (dir. Benito Zambrano/Spain/Cuba/France/2005), a captivating love letter to life on the “crazy isle” of Cuba, the film follows a group of musicians—not the Buena Vista Social Club—struggling to make it big time. The festival has a point of view, in the sense that we choose films we feel are important. We want to make sure we have films for many audiences. There are a lot of ways filmmakers can speak to an audience.

VC: Back to “Peace Has No Borders.” What will audiences find most surprising or intriguing about the subject of war resistance as you and Meuller are covering it?

DM: I hope they will understand that Iraq is not about a failed mission—it is, of course—but the real point is the problem is much darker. I hope we can get the audience to understand that if we only think in those terms we will be in another war with the same consequences. The other thing they will find surprising is that the resisters like Canada and want to stay there.

DE: I think the other thing that our audience will find intriguing is the consciousness of the resisters. These are people who have made a decision to fight against a war they believe is immoral, and often, they have found extremely creative ways to express their resistance.

VC: What are some of the challenges that you and Meuller have faced in making the film?

DM: Right now it has been money, as always, and finding the time to get to Canada. I am sure there will be many more. (laughs)

DE: Money and time! What else stops people with a passion to make a film! Otherwise, we're set.

VC: What would you say are some of the most exciting changes afoot, either technologically or culturally, for independent filmmakers?

DM: I think that there are more outlets for independents. We are still drops of water compared the ugly hurricane of the mainstream, but it is improving.

DE: I guess I'm not sure that more outlets mean more opportunities for serious independent filmmakers like us. Who knows? On the other hand, I think we now have more ways to interact with our audience from pre-production through distribution. How independent filmmakers take advantage of this opportunity is key.

I'm most interested in story. I think we get too tied up in technology. There are always new technologies, and they always offer more resolution and promises. It's important to know how to interact, but ultimately, it's about story. If we have a good story, we can get it out. It's a lot of work!

VC: What's the next film project on your horizon?

DE: We're working on the next film on the horizon! I have limited vision beyond what I am immersed in at a particular moment! There are always a few little projects festering, and maybe I'll have the time to finish them now. I'm so happy to be at UVM, close to home and in my community again. I counted the time I've spent in my car driving over the past 5 years and it equals the equivalent of 97 days, if I was driving 60 mph the entire time. That's too much time in a car! I can't believe how many people I've run into in the last few weeks, just riding the bus, walking my bike, living my life. I'm encouraged by the possibility of time.

VC: You're also a film teacher, so what advice do you, or would you, give to an aspiring indie filmmaker who wants to change the world with movies?

DE: My advice to all students who want to become filmmakers is to find out a lot about the world that has nothing to do with filmmaking. Find something you are passionate about. Discover new worlds and people. Experience—THEN come back to filmmaking. To change the world, you need to understand the world. Film becomes a way to talk about what you know. I see too many students who want to emulate what they see at the theater rather than thinking about what they really have to say—and I mean “have to say.” Unless you have something you have to say, there is no purpose. This doesn't mean you have to make didactic films that tell the world what to think. Rather, it means you've taken the time to be passionate enough about finding a way to express what you care about most. Take the time! And believe in your experience.

DM: Make your art an art based in experience. By that I mean, not your experience or mine, but an experience that is based on the world in which we live. The other thing is to have the courage to not have an agenda. This does not mean one does not have a point of view, but allow your film to grow in an organic fashion and learn from your characters.